Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

Dealing With the Renegades - Revisited

love detective

there's no love too small
2 and half years ago the IWCA put out an article called Dealing With The Renegades, which at the time received a fair bit of criticism and gasps from both shocked liberals, lefties and others alike

In light of recent events are opinions on it still the same as it was? Can the issues that it raises be ignored in any attempt to develop a meaningful, relevant and confident working class politics for the age & conditions we currently find ourselves in?

The full piece can be read here and below have quoted a few choice excerpts from it:-

Amidst all the concern about knife crime and gang culture, it is often tacitly assumed that the perpetrators are representative of alienated working class youth. Not so: what they are more generally representative of is a new -and growing- social formation that has willingly embraced a non-work ethic. It needs to be recognised that these lumpen elements represent a grouping that is quite separate from, and actively hostile to, the interests and well-being of the working class proper.

Admittedly the biggest problem in identifying the trend is the physical proximity between the emerging underclass and the working class proper. Though they may share the same estates at the same time the former harbours instincts, values and aspirations at variance with and indeed hostile (like sort of low rent neo-liberals) to traditional working class custom and practice. This is what goes to make it so potentially destructive a fifth column. Karl Marx himself concluded that it represented ‘the most dangerous class of all’ (our italics) for similar reasons. And given its current scale, a class is what it undoubtedly is.

And even if initially a scarcity of choices is what propels these youngsters toward the life, the gang culture is alluring. More than anything what it promises the pack member (there is almost always a pack factor) is instant gratification. Money, status and sex (consensual or otherwise – mass rape goes unreported though is apparently not uncommon) all seem instantly more attainable, with the core philosophy all wrapped up rather opportunistically in the flag of ‘respect’. Put simply most are ‘in the life’ because they want to be. It might also be tempting to dismiss it all, as some do, as nothing but a lethal subculture (on the mistaken grounds that the scum only kill each other) but the belief system and philosophy they draw on -get rich quick, the weak go to the wall- has a considerably wider and more venomous resonance.

Why this is important politically is that once a lumpen mentality is allowed to take root over a generation or more, a pattern is set seemingly for other socio/ political relationships too. In place of civic pride, community spirit, or basic empathy and solidarity (none of which have any place in their world) there is instead an over-developed sense of individual entitlement combined with a perverse pride in subverting a core socialist tenet: ‘you only take out exactly what you’ve put in’. It follows that outside of what affects them directly as individuals or maybe immediate family there is a malign indifference.

A knock-on consequence is that many ordinary working class communities become blighted by a not dissimilar contagion. Thoroughly demoralized, many no longer regard themselves as having any real stake in how their neighbours or the wider community is getting along. Previously a deep sense of community and comradeship made many an otherwise downtrodden area bearable.

Much of this destruction can be directly attributed to the 30 year crusade by Reagan/Thatcher/Blair, who, inspired by right-wing think tanks, became convinced they could actually influence how people think. Atomising social relations and fundamentally changing what people had faith in, is, if anyone needs reminding, what neo-liberalism was really about. Having done so successfully, we now are reaping the whirlwind.

Consequently with the arrival of each new generation previously identifiable working class ideals are eroded or displaced, while ‘lumpen’ characteristics typified by a venal and brazen opportunism seem to become ever more pronounced. In some areas it already appears to be the natural condition.

Understandably the emergence of the ‘underclass’ (with the working poor being wrongly included) has been greeted with glee by many right-wing academics. Usually because it affords them a soft target, an ideal opportunity, without ever appearing to over-reach, to justify the existing order and validate middle class prejudice. Among the more seriously motivated the scrutiny of this new social set is to discern if it might carry a possible threat to the existing political order. In actual fact they needn’t worry, for as an effective fifth column it is already proving a considerable buttress to the status quo though arguably still in its infancy.

But precisely because the IWCA is in business to ensure that a political threat to the system is not extinguished, aspects of housing, education and social security policy, apparently well meaning and benign, when mixed with the overarching neo-liberal narrative may have become toxic. If that proves to be the case they have to be pinpointed and rooted out. What strengthens our class – as a class - is always strategically good while any polices which emasculate, diminish or dilute it is strategically bad.

The first task therefore is to explain where this new social formation has come from and how it functions, while at the same time backing long reaching solutions that promise to check or reverse its growth, a stance that might be best explained by re-working an oft-quoted comment from John Major on criminality in 1993: ‘we need to understand a little more and condemn a little more‘. In a post-industrial world having the ability to confidently define the core working class constituency is a must. Because it is only out of such a process that the political authority to exclude as well as include can emerge.
 
2 and half years ago the IWCA put out an article called Dealing With The Renegades, which at the time received a fair bit of criticism and gasps from both shocked liberals, lefties and others alike

In light of recent events are opinions on it still the same as it was? Can the issues that it raises be ignored in any attempt to develop a meaningful, relevant and confident working class politics for the age & conditions we currently find ourselves in?

The full piece can be read here and below have quoted a few choice excerpts from it:-

Why am I not surprised that this post has been completely ignored?
 
I think a lot of people found the original article bold and uncomfortable on here and also on other boards. It goes right against the grain of liberal leftism which triumphs the renegades , siding with them as 'victims'. You can see that in the the discussion on here about sentencing of those involved in the looting.

The 'salute our looters ' and demands for a full transitional programme line that Trot groups like Workers Power took, is typical of the surreal abstract world of the cobweb left.

If pro working class elements had built strong working class community organisations would they have cheered on 'our boys' who looted and smashed up local shops and businesses? Or would that looting be less likely to happen in areas where there were strong working class community organisations?
 
What people tend to forget is that those at the forefront of this week's riots are the kind of people who make life in many working class communities a misery, especially for the weakest and most defenceless. For those of us who grew up in the inner-cities, the despicable wanker rifling through the Malaysian student's bag after he'd been attacked is an eminently recognisable character.
 
Just posted this on another thread, didn't realise this one was here:

Very interesting and thoughtful piece from Kenan Malik: Moral Poverty and the Riots

The fact that the right has appropriated the language of morality has led many on the left to ignore moral arguments, indeed often to see such arguments as reactionary. That is a fatal mistake. Morality is as important to the left as it is to the right, though for very different reasons. There is no possibility of a political or economic vision of a different society without a moral vision too. Moral arguments lie at the heart of our understanding of social solidarity, and of the distinction between notions of social solidarity and pious rightwing claims of ‘we’re all in it together’. And that is why it also has to be at the heart of our understanding of the riots.

As a result, morality has come to be seen not as difficult choices that one has to wrestle with, or as norms that one works through within a collective setting, but as a set of predetermined rules provided as a state hand-out. Morality has ceased to be ours.

Because the right has appropriated the arguments about moral failure, many on the left have rejected moral arguments altogether. The left talks much about the social and economic impact of neo-liberal policies. But little about its moral impact. Such willful blindness is dangerous. The questions about economic and social poverty, about unemployment and the cuts, are closely related to the questions about moral poverty, about the breakdown of social solidarity and the rise of a nihilistic culture. There can be no challenge to mass unemployment and the imposition of austerity without the restoration of bonds of social solidarity. We cannot, in other words, cannot confront economic poverty if we do not also confront moral poverty. We need to remake our own language of morality, reforge our own moral norms.
 
As a result, morality has come to be seen not as difficult choices that one has to wrestle with, or as norms that one works through within a collective setting, but as a set of predetermined rules provided as a state hand-out. Morality has ceased to be ours.

I thought the rioters were them - the lumpen non-working class, the underclass. Surely "our" morality is as relevant to them as the state hand-out?
 
What people tend to forget is that those at the forefront of this week's riots are the kind of people who make life in many working class communities a misery, especially for the weakest and most defenceless. For those of us who grew up in the inner-cities, the despicable wanker rifling through the Malaysian student's bag after he'd been attacked is an eminently recognisable character.

that's it in a beanshell

I posted the below on another thread but probably more relevant here:-

it's no surprise that riots in a neo-liberalised society take on a neo-liberal form themselves

while it might be energising/liberating to see the police being so effectively sidelined and shown to be powerless in the face of a mass (albeit of atomised individuals) who share a common purpose - is there anything else positive that can be taken from what's happened, personally I'm struggling

as the logic & motivations of the riots seem to be derived from the very same logic & motivations of the society that 'produced' them, there doesn't seem to be much there to actually threaten or dent the foundational basis of the system that they are supposedly reacting against. sure we can all go on about how looters are bypassing & causing ruptures to the normal circuits and flows of capital, but that in and off itself doesn't mean there's anything progressive about it - organised crime does the same thing to an extent and no one sees anything liberating or progressive about that

at least in the past, forms of protest and revolt against the system emerged and had some kind of life span before they were eventually recouperated by capital, but this kind of thing doesn't even need to be recouperated as its starting point is already squarely in the individualist neo-liberalising camp already. Even looters themselves were being robbed of their gear (I saw this myself at the back of the argo warehouse in catford) - no sign of even a collective solidarity amongst the looters. What basis is that to genuinely hold the kind of optimism that some on the left seem to be getting from this - the only thing to come from this will be to further bolster the confidence of the lumpen elements that are already making life a misery for a large element of the working class proper. The notion that lefty (by having 'street meetings') can somehow harness and direct this towards something more progressive is absurd

fair enough any kind of riot or disturbance is going to be a messy complicated affair and you can't hold out for a perfect/textbook reaction to capital/the state - but all this seems to do is to further shine an already bright light on the complete & utter failure of any kind of progressive/radical alternative to what's happening to our society
 
love detective said:
but all this seems to do is to further shine an already bright light on the complete & utter failure of any kind of progressive/radical alternative to what's happening to our society
Agreed, but that'll be due to too much of this sort of polarising thinking:

lumpen elements that are already making life a misery for a large element of the working class proper.
I take it EDL members defending Eltham are "proper" whereas teaching assistants nicking clothes are "lumpen elements"?
 
that's it in a beanshell

The notion that lefty (by having 'street meetings') can somehow harness and direct this towards something more progressive is absurd

fair enough any kind of riot or disturbance is going to be a messy complicated affair and you can't hold out for a perfect/textbook reaction to capital/the state - but all this seems to do is to further shine an already bright light on the complete & utter failure of any kind of progressive/radical alternative to what's happening to our society

As I said in another thread 'the left' (anarchists included) even were it capable of approaching the rioters, which it isn't, would be met by blank incomprehension if not outright hostility.
 
Put simply most are ‘in the life’ because they want to be.
There's a lot of truth in that article IMO, but this isn't my experience when doing youth work with excluded kids, and doesn't match with the experience of friends still doing this.

For most they sink into that life because they can't see any other viable option, and it's handed to them on a plate. The alternative route of apprenticeships, learning a trade etc by contrast usually seem like an impossible pipe dream, with few opportunities available, little support, and no guarantee of work anyway (particularly in a recession).

There will be some who given all the options would choose a life of dealing, petty crime and likelihood of time in jail, but it's a tiny minority IMO. Fact is the options aren't there for most, so they slip into this life instead. It's almost the inevitable consequence of excluding the number of kids from school that we do in this country combined with the lack of trade type training / apprenticeships and reasonably paid work opportunities etc.

my experience is from oop north though, so this may be more true in parts of london.
 
I take it EDL members defending Eltham are "proper" whereas teaching assistants nicking clothes are "lumpen elements"?

The problem you face there is that whether you like it not those people who gathered in Eltham, at least on Tuesday night, where locals and that what they did was the same as the Turks/Kurds in Dalston and the Sikhs in Southall. It was a community response and primarily from people who could be considered as working class. In fact I would argue that those in Eltham probably represented the most direct descendants of the working classes that Mark and Engles wrote about it and seemingly put so much faith in.

Its not enough to have a seeming response from many on the left that 'brown' viglilante groups good, 'white' viglilante groups bad and that in many ways their appearance was the most newsworthy happening of the entire event because the truth is that for many people it was the first time in the lives that that had genuine concerns about being able to ring 999 and get a response. The authourity of the state was probably at its weakest on Monday and Tuesday than it has been since maybe the darkest days of the bombing in WW2.
 
think I started to lose focus a bit at this point :
.
"Money, status and sex (consensual or otherwise – mass rape goes unreported though is apparently not uncommon) all seem instantly more attainable, with the core philosophy all wrapped up rather opportunistically in the flag of ‘respect’)"

I'm used to reading /hearing that kind of unsubstantiated crap in all sorts of places, but wouldn't expect to be hearing it from an organistion with , like it or not,remaining links to socialism - any of you bearers of the flame want to expand on that particular little claim ? Like, just a morcel of supporting evidence for what is a very grave accusation ?
 
As I said in another thread 'the left' (anarchists included) even were it capable of approaching the rioters, which it isn't, would be met by blank incomprehension if not outright hostility.

ffs, give it a rest keyboard warrior - riots / unrest / rebellion taking place all over this country on an unprecedented scale, with all sorts of dynamics ,participants, focus, responses involved - and you're sat behind your keyboard days later declaring with the kind of bullshit authority only LLetsa can summon up , what would/wouldn't happen if 'the left' (anarchists included)' 'approached the rioters' ? you'll be getting the tea leaves out next you daft old sod.
 
It just reads to me like another form of polarisation. It refers to the working and not-workers as though they are two homogenous masses. There is confusion in it over whether we are fighting structure or a moral battle. If they think the latter is necessary for the former then I'd still ask how does better morality lead to a better fight in the situation where there is bugger all leftist organisation to start with? You can't self-discipline your movement if there is no movement. Meanwhile it is shot through with the religious notion of the moral good of work. And above all, it fails to recognise how more powerful people moralising at less powerful people creates new forms of power. And yes, if you are working and writing pieces for the IWCA, you have marginally - by some small but significant amount - more power than the non-working 'underclass' you are writing about. It is unpleasant to watch moralising within an unbalanced power relationship. There are other ways to engage with people who are causing you trouble than disciplining them. This is religion masquerading as politics. Oh Lord, give us the strength and the knowledge to bring those Backsliders back into the fold, so that we, the True Working Class, can take on our Messianic role in defeating Satanic Capitalism.

And I'm not saying this from a guilt-ridden liberal position (though no doubt BA will decide I am). And I felt a small sense of satisfaction when someone punched the little tyke trying to nick my bike in Lewisham on Monday night. When you have to fight arseholes you have to fight arseholes. I just like my politics at least relatively unstructured by the 2000 years of religious nonsense we pretend to have escaped.
 
It just reads to me like another form of polarisation. It refers to the working and not-workers as though they are two homogenous masses. There is confusion in it over whether we are fighting structure or a moral battle. If they think the latter is necessary for the former then I'd still ask how does better morality lead to a better fight in the situation where there is bugger all leftist organisation to start with? You can't self-discipline your movement if there is no movement. Meanwhile it is shot through with the religious notion of the moral good of work. And above all, it fails to recognise how more powerful people moralising at less powerful people creates new forms of power. And yes, if you are working and writing pieces for the IWCA, you have marginally - by some small but significant amount - more power than the non-working 'underclass' you are writing about. It is unpleasant to watch moralising within an unbalanced power relationship. There are other ways to engage with people who are causing you trouble than disciplining them. This is religion masquerading as politics. Oh Lord, give us the strength and the knowledge to bring those Backsliders back into the fold, so that we, the True Working Class, can take on our Messianic role in defeating Satanic Capitalism.

And I'm not saying this from a guilt-ridden liberal position (though no doubt BA will decide I am). And I felt a small sense of satisfaction when someone punched the little tyke trying to nick my bike in Lewisham on Monday night. When you have to fight arseholes you have to fight arseholes. I just like my politics at least relatively unstructured by the 2000 years of religious nonsense we pretend to have escaped.

well put, lots of half assed 'morality ', very little substance, and no socialism ( "packs" - what like 'animals' ? ! ) ....in these circumstances, possibly the weakest ever contribution I've seen from what I know is now largely a forgotten organisation, but is still inextricably linked to one that seemed at the time to have some real potential. End of that particular story for me.
 
i'm probably too pissed to post on this thread but - i've never really accepted the idea of a lumpen class and personally the idea that a class division should be based on morality rather than economics and relationship to capital/power is contemptible. the most human response to poverty and exclusion is rage, and a desire to just take what you dont have.i remember walking the streets of london when i was living in a nightshelter as a teenager and looking through the windows of restaurants, i hated those cunts in there, but i also wanted what they had, money, security, family - unless we can provide that, then all this shit is irrelevent - you wont make alienated children less angry by preaching at them or further alienating them - we need to offer solutions right now, not some vague hope of glorious revolution one day, and given how pissed off they are that solution will need to be better than a job in tescos
 
think I started to lose focus a bit at this point :
.
"Money, status and sex (consensual or otherwise – mass rape goes unreported though is apparently not uncommon) all seem instantly more attainable, with the core philosophy all wrapped up rather opportunistically in the flag of ‘respect’)"

I'm used to reading /hearing that kind of unsubstantiated crap in all sorts of places, but wouldn't expect to be hearing it from an organistion with , like it or not,remaining links to socialism - any of you bearers of the flame want to expand on that particular little claim ? Like, just a morcel of supporting evidence for what is a very grave accusation ?

'Not much reported' would be more accurate than 'unreported' and 'gang rape' is probably a better term than 'mass rape'.

Morsels:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/3397433.stm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/jun/05/gender.ukcrime
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8345673.stm
 
think I started to lose focus a bit at this point :
.
"Money, status and sex (consensual or otherwise – mass rape goes unreported though is apparently not uncommon) all seem instantly more attainable, with the core philosophy all wrapped up rather opportunistically in the flag of ‘respect’)"

I'm used to reading /hearing that kind of unsubstantiated crap in all sorts of places, but wouldn't expect to be hearing it from an organistion with , like it or not,remaining links to socialism - any of you bearers of the flame want to expand on that particular little claim ? Like, just a morcel of supporting evidence for what is a very grave accusation ?

a morcel

Young women are being exploited and subjected to sexual violence as a result of gang reprisals, according to a report.

Interviews with more than 350 women and girls by the charity Race on the Agenda revealed the use of rape to punish girl gang members and relatives of rivals.

The women and girls interviewed were all associated with gangs in London.

Report author Carlene Firmin said rape was being used "as a weapon of choice" and few services were equipped to help.

a bit more - A study into the impact of serious youth and gang violence on women and girls (PDF)

Sexual violence and exploitation are significant weapons used against females associated with, or involved in, gang violence. Rape has become a weapon of choice, and used against sisters, girlfriends and on occasion mothers, as it is the only weapon that cannot be detected during a stopand search.

This use of sexual violence takes place against a backdrop where girls have little peer support, where girls and boys are extremely confused about consent and their own motivations for engaging in sex, and where young people have little to no understanding of coercion.

Gang-associated women and girls rarely disclose any victimisation they experience due to fears over reprisals, and the belief that their criminal association means that they are not privy to the protection of the state.

Research by Jody Miller (2001), amongst others, has identified, but not always explored, the high rate at which young women associated with gang violence experience sexual assault. The Building Bridges Project identified that those females who associated with gangs as partners (as well as sisters) feared gang rape being used on them as a weapon against the male with whom they were associated.

“In the area of serious sexual violence, there is an appreciably high level of under-reporting. In offences involving multiple perpetrators, the pressures for not reporting to police are believed to be even higher. This could be through fear of reprisals from a wider network of suspects, or through social links to the victim if a known party initiated the offence and unknown offenders then took part. Because a significant proportion of these offences are committed against young people, there is further potential for under-reporting due to the victim‟s age, additional vulnerabilities and the powerful effect of peer group pressures.”

some more - The Female Voice in Violence Project - On the impact of serious youth violence and criminal gangs on on women and girls across the country (PDF)

many paricipants were able to ariculate risk, drawing from their own experiences and those of their peers and family members. Women and girls were able to discuss, in detail,extreme forms of violence such as rape,kidnap, torture and arson, and their fear for their personal safety and the safety of those around them.

Across the country, women and girls discussed the use of rape and sexual assault as a weapon in criminal gang conflict employed against female family members and partners of gang members to threaten or punish. Rape was cited as a risk without promping, and was often linked to the use of kidnap and other forms of torture.
 
'Not much reported' would be more accurate than 'unreported' and 'gang rape' is probably a better term than 'mass rape'.

Morsels: ( at best !)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/3397433.stm (2004)


Police figures have revealed muggers could be behind a rise in allegations of gang rape in London.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/jun/05/gender.ukcrime (2004 )


On Thursday Met Commissioner Sir John Stevens said actual recorded offences of group rapes had fallen by 14% in the year December 2002 to November 2003 compared to the previous year.
seems the allegations were just that then, allegations.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8345673.stm
(2009)

New figures revealed there were 93 gang sex attacks in London in 2008/2009, compared to 71 in 2003/2004, with others unreported, detectives believe.

ignoring the 'beliefs' of bent OB on the take from NOTW, a 17% rise is not to be taken lightly, , but we'd need a update now to actually get any hard info from this, ie: to see any kind of continued, sig nificant rise .
 
(2009)

New figures revealed there were 93 gang sex attacks in London in 2008/2009, compared to 71 in 2003/2004, with others unreported, detectives believe.

grim as that is, in a city of 7 million people it is hardly endemic - id imagine that levels of rape is comparable amongst all the social classes and has more to do with patriarchy than the lumpen proletariat.

to use it to condemn the tens if not hundreds of thousands of kids who came out on the streets the other night, or the unemployed (whether through choice or circumstances) is sensationalist bullshit
 
In a post-industrial world having the ability to confidently define the core working class constituency is a must. Because it is only out of such a process that the political authority to exclude as well as include can emerge.

I don't understand what is meant by this really. How is it useful to exclude? Where do the excluded go?

Also, surely one should be extending the notion of working class to include the majority - the vast majority, 90 percent of the population, I would say, more or less - who I would argue all share a great deal in common in terms of their interests in defending and extending universal provision, ensuring taxation is progressive, and more nakedly anti-capitalist measures such as taking essential services back into public ownership. Where is there a 'core' that is smaller than this and that has distinct interests? Isn't it more fruitful to try to reach out beyond any traditional core to persuade many who would today vote tory that in fact their interests lie with the many that are beneath them in the economic order, not the few that are above them?

In terms of collective action - government action - regarding this kind of social problem, the solution can only be one thing, I think. All else is a bit of a distraction. And that solution is straightforwardly the redistribution of wealth. Many of the solutions to the problems of societal breakdown follow from this, and are impossible without it, I would say.

A simple example of this would be the changes that have taken place around Kings Cross - the estates along the Pentonville Road. Lots of money has been spent on them, and they are far better places to live as a result. I take a class in a new community centre there occasionally, and there are capoeira classes before mine, and lots of other things going on. The communal areas between blocks have controlled access now, which is unfortunate in many ways, but it does allow kids to play and hang out there in safety. Spending money well works, basically. And it's the only real solution to any of this. That kind of money needs to be spent on every single estate in the country, and there is absolutely no reason whatever why it can't. And crucially, the money then needs to continue to be spent, to ensure that the sports halls and community centres continue to be used, and continue to be maintained. How many adventure playgrounds are there in London that are closed and overgrown now? The only one I can think of that's still open is in Wandsworth, and it's a great place. Every borough needs to have them.

A lot of the kids rioting were just teenagers. I'm very uncomfortable with the idea of excluding them and subcategorising them as a non-working underclass. They're just kids still. Or have I missed the point?
 
cantsin - i'm guessing you're not seeing the logical fallacy in looking to use figures for reported gang rapes to challenge the comment that:-

"mass rape goes unreported though is apparently not uncommon"

and even putting that aside - the general notion that any serious attempt to understand and comprehend the true prevalence of rape should rely upon official reported figures is absurd when reports suggest that something like nine in ten rapes go unreported


 
think I started to lose focus a bit at this point :
.
"Money, status and sex (consensual or otherwise – mass rape goes unreported though is apparently not uncommon) all seem instantly more attainable, with the core philosophy all wrapped up rather opportunistically in the flag of ‘respect’)"

I'm used to reading /hearing that kind of unsubstantiated crap in all sorts of places, but wouldn't expect to be hearing it from an organistion with , like it or not,remaining links to socialism - any of you bearers of the flame want to expand on that particular little claim ? Like, just a morcel of supporting evidence for what is a very grave accusation ?

I think to be fair it should have read 'gang rape'. Funnily enough the only people that bring it up are black themselves. Why? Because it is their sisters and daughters who are more often than not the potential targets. Of course, by one programme last year, made by a black man I think on Channel Four, the media, for all the usual reasons, ignores it entirely. When a youth worker (and ex-gang member incidentally) brought up the scandal of media and political silence during a heated discussion panel on Sky on Friday, he was of course ignored.
 
cantsin - i'm guessing you're not seeing the logical fallacy in looking to use figures for reported gang rapes to challenge the comment that:-

"mass rape goes unreported though is apparently not uncommon"

the comment is nonsense, there is no 'mass rape', gang rape, horrific a crime as it is, is not mass rape, the idea that the lumpen are mass raping each other is ludicrous
 
i think we are all agreed and accept that what is meant was gang rape (and indeed it was gang rapes that cantsin was referring to when pointing out the statistics which we are all apparently to take as gospel)
 
There's a lot of truth in that article IMO, but this isn't my experience when doing youth work with excluded kids, and doesn't match with the experience of friends still doing this...

my experience is from oop north though, so this may be more true in parts of london.
 
When a youth worker (and ex-gang member incidentally) brought up the scandal of media and political silence during a heated discussion panel on Sky on Friday, he was of course ignored.

was that the guy who was on the bbc youth question time last night. he came across really well until he starting going on about teenagers being given contraception and teenage mothers being the root of all the problems the working class faces
 

London is different in that regard. There are hundreds of mainly black gangs in London. They are a criminal network. Often drug-based. For much of the time they target each other. Knifings and shootings, tit for tat, are fairly common. The riots in Hackney and Tottenham were very different in terms of intensity, to what happened outside of London, and to what happened in other parts of London.
 
Back
Top Bottom